Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

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Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby Maraschino Larry » Mon May 29, 2006 9:39 pm

Welcome to the first chapter in what I hope to be a long series.

Pretty much my favorite part of daskartell meetings is of course styling discussion. I figure we should have topics instead of a freeforall- you know- with 5 users this shit could get out of hand :P (haha these smilies are retarded rob)

I was inspired by a single pic to bring up this topic. Pic:
Image

Basically where I'm going here is how we can properly use VIP styling cues without looking like a lame wannabe, which is what has happed so far IMO. To me that estima is reminicent of the 'OEM plus' vw look. No 5" lip on the wheels, no slab sided bodykit and of course the super RSs helped me draw paralells. I know this wasn't intentional by the builder but that doesn't really matter to me right now. Basically I wanna do the opposite of the above- vip vw.

The reason I feel it's difficult to pull off the VIP shit hard is because there is so much similarity in the most important field- stance.

typical euro= some dish, some poke, healthy stretch, tucking 1/4-1/2 of the tire.

typical VIP= extreme dish, comperable stretch, tucking all tire and sometimes rim and flushed offsets coupled with insane -camber.

It's next to impossible to pull off the VIP stance on vws due to the reality of the cars themselves. that kind of dish you would not have flush offsets nor any camber really.

I feel the ideal platform to start with would be the mkV chassis to acheive stance success but I really would like to see the style applied to mkIIIs and maybe mkIIs? And any gen passat.

Verbal vomit- sorry guys. Just thought I'd get the ball rolling- didn't wanna spill all of my ideas on the OP :D

EDIT: I guess that pic doesn't *really* encompass what I'm going for- I guess its more of a jumpoff point. It would have to have smaller RSs and some poke :)
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Postby professor science » Tue May 30, 2006 11:03 am

Hell yeah Rick. I can only hope that this book of yours gets better as we progress through the chapters.

I'll start my reply at the end of your post:

Regarding platform. Of all the platforms VW has to offer (aside from the Phaeton), the B5 and B5.5 Passat would, more than likely, be the one that could wear VIP-inspiration appropriately, or at least the EXE (executive) subset of VIP styling. From what I know, the MkV has ridiculously high offsets, (ET 45). This gives you a large amount of freedom, as hopping to an ET 0 nets almost 2" of lip, however, there is not much room within the fender wells to go that far, if any further. Additionally, of the older VWs, the Mk3 Jetta may be able to pull VIP-influence off the best.

With that said, we have to understand that within VIP, there are styling subsets in which we can draw other perspectives and inspiration from. Bosozoku, Yakuza, traditional VIP, EXEcutive, Kei-cars... I could go on for a while.

While many of these styles follow the typical VIP you outlined in your post, it is not the be all and end all of VIP, just like OEM+ is not the be all and end all of VW styling, as within OEM+ there is the euro influence, as well as the sporting GTI influence. Along with this is the possibility of using other manufacturers wheels with a cleaned OEM+ look to give the car more of a luxurious feel.

Sorry for the slight tangent. What you are saying is that Estima is putting our OEM+ look to work for him, and you want to take the crazy VIP look and throw it on a dub.

Problem 1: Camber
You can't have it, okay, so I am lying a bit, but here's why. As we are all familiar with the rear suspension design, as the wheels go through their travel, they rotate up and forward in the wheel well. As they travel, any camber that existed at stock height, rotates through to become toe when lowered.

Shims can be used to eliminate this, but inorder to eliminate the toe, and add camber, a network of shims would be needed. I believe when Dan used the shims on his Jetta, they added camber, but I am not sure if they eliminated the toe-in as well.

Problem 2: Offsets
This could have been considered a problem up until a few years ago. Euro inspiration had not been so great, body work was too expensive, and the widespread availability of exotic, multi piece wheels was entirely concentrated in Europe. Then we found the internet, and people started doing stuff.

Now Et 10 and ET 0 are somewhat common place. Fenders are being pulled left and right (no pun intended), and people are doing things right.

e.g.
Image

I think if this car were to drop more camber in the rear, it could be considered VIP inspired, (new wheels are in order as well).

Another example is Mykey, a.k.a. AllThingsGhetto, who ran Work eurolines with the best of them, and pretty much started the VIPVW jump-off.

I think I misread your post though. Cuz now I have no direction from which to continue. However, I feel we agree that proper VIP is difficult to pull off on a VW. VIP inspiration is more than doable, but we must be selective and critical at what we choose. Curtains and puddle lights to not a VIP VW make.
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Postby Maraschino Larry » Tue May 30, 2006 12:59 pm

not misread- more parphrased/expanded upon.

When I said oem+ I meant in in terms of onmy vw context. Obviously you can OEM+ anything- but in the vw worl it has been reduced to a science- so I used it to draw some paralells. It's sort of confusing because I used a picture showing the inverse of what I was trying to articulate.

I thought I'd focus mainly on traditional VIP values as its been juuuust touched on by the scene and has been predicted by many as a future fad.

Applying it to the large sedans would be most suiting, but I would like to explore the idea of seeing if elements could work well on other platforms.

Yeah mkV seems easiest for pulling off the stance. Removing the inner fenders and building a tube subframe ala minitrucks (this will be another chapter ;)) and doing a similar treatment in the rear would solve the problem. Nobody said this was gonna be easy.

Another reason that it's a challenge is that as you mentioned you cant slap on some puddle lights, curtains and wood trays and call it a day. This would be tacky as hell and discount the whole idea. This is not like the hotrod inspired look where you can screw on some bullet mirrors, a moon eyes sticker, some tiki crap and some billet wheels and call it a day (hahahahaha hilarious).

Interesting choice with whatshisfaces jetta. It forces me to ask a question:

Do you think we need to nail the stance in order to nail the look?

Because I pretty much do... but I see whee you're going with that one. And much like that previa on the bbs it still retains teh traditional stance. hmm.

As much as I hate to admit it I think that if he somehow could have pulled off the stance, that douche dubfetish would have been damn close. He'd need a colourchange too and chrome handles.

Picture it...

EDIT: yeah mikey's car could be a contender too, even with the stance he had... maybe some camber shims and then carefully introduced styling cues.

And BTW this ain't my book- it's everybody's- I just wanted to get the ball rolling. <3
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Postby professor science » Tue May 30, 2006 5:28 pm

Luxurious wrote:I thought I'd focus mainly on traditional VIP values as its been juuuust touched on by the scene and has been predicted by many as a future fad.


Gotcha! That was what I thought, but was slightly confused.

Luxurious wrote:Yeah mkV seems easiest for pulling off the stance. Removing the inner fenders and building a tube subframe ala minitrucks (this will be another chapter ;)) and doing a similar treatment in the rear would solve the problem. Nobody said this was gonna be easy.


Easiest? :roll:

Luxurious wrote:This is not like the hotrod inspired look where you can screw on some bullet mirrors, a moon eyes sticker, some tiki crap and some billet wheels and call it a day (hahahahaha hilarious).


:lol:

Luxurious wrote:Do you think we need to nail the stance in order to nail the look?

Because I pretty much do... but I see whee you're going with that one. And much like that previa on the bbs it still retains the traditional stance. hmm.


I don't even think that can be argued. Without stance the look is a mockery. It comes down to millimetres, my friend. If the Previa can pull off VIP stance running OEM+ wheels, why can't VWs run just the opposite? (I know your answer, and I agree completely, I just want to hear your opinion).

Luxurious wrote:As much as I hate to admit it I think that if he somehow could have pulled off the stance, that douche dubfetish would have been damn close. He'd need a colourchange too and chrome handles.


I agree. He could have done it, but it needed something. Handles are one, paint is another, keep it badged, use jetta chrome strips.

IIRC, the interior was race inspired. Luxor that interior and he could even use the puddle lights/curtains to his advantage.

Luxurious wrote:And BTW this ain't my book- it's everybody's- I just wanted to get the ball rolling. <3


I'll look for a copy in Chapters, Spring 2007.
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Postby Maraschino Larry » Tue May 30, 2006 6:36 pm

haha the truck guys have no problem hacking up their new $30k+ rides *envy*

It's such a certain je ne sais pas with the VIP stance. I wish I knew we can't just reverse it but it just doesn't work. Not to say that allthingsghetto's car didn't pull off the eurolines a treat- but it was not VIP.

ANd yeah that dude's interior was goof city. Red inserts and stuff. What made me chuckle when I was picking over his car in the context of this conversation is the gawdy interior set up. Did you watch that VIP video posted on cleaned (give it a watch its great anyways)? Check that interior *vomit*. Not the first time I've seen that treatment in a VIP car- not that that rig is 100% traditional mind you- certainly not the route I would go anyways.

I'd add the GLX wood dash trim and a wooden rimmed audi wheel to a supple re-trim for his car.

IS THIS A FUCKING IM CONVO OR A KARTELL DISCUSSION??? GREG, STEVE, JONNY what says you???????? 8)
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PIV

Postby square head » Wed May 31, 2006 2:49 pm

Before I get into it this is an amazing place to surf by the by.
When I blow time on the 'tex I feel unintelligent. The same shit day in and day out. I love taking things out of the box.

Here's my take Gents...

I think you to are missing a fundamental element of this styling genre.
The base car.
You can't rock a Geo Metro VIP gentlemen. A VIP ride needs to be a large, saloon from Germany or Japan (personal yuck).
As far applying this to VeeWees, it is quite difficult. Lets me honest. Golfs and Jettas are economy vehicles. They lack mass.

Don't get me wrong. You can apply VIP cues to VeeWees. It just seems almost out of place at times.

I think of VIP as an extension of Euro. My Jetta has the poke, the strech, the (variable) ride height blah, blah, blah. I've even went so far as to increase my rear camber. Someday when I become a man and cram some 18 x 13's on a A6 that may be VIP (wihout the ugly body crap they typically run).

Give us some visual example of what you consider to be mainstream VIP. I need direction.
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Postby Maraschino Larry » Wed May 31, 2006 8:31 pm

Yay Steve!!!!!!!!!! It's a real party now! :lol:

That is a very interesting, and polarizing comment. It illuminates a very important point. Do you need the bigbody to pull of the look? I say polarizing because I pretty much disagree with you. I just wish I had a more concise way of explaining my view.... i'll try my best. Unless the stance is 100% dead on and the proportions are correct and the stars align, I feel that a german bigbody with the VIP treatment is much more likely to look like a lame-o wannabe than a hatch or compact with similar strengths/weaknesses, y'naawamean?

Like I feel the best way to use VIP to the advantage of VWs is to use what works and pull it off but keep a VW essence. It's kind of like going whole hog 100% minitruck to the max on a caddy- it'd look kinda lame-o. I mean that would kind of be cool to me but that's because I'm sick- but I don't feel it'd be exploiting the look to our advantage. Even if an A8 or whatever pulls it off to a tee, I feel it would almost bore me, because I have seen VIP done right so many times in that application. You still gotta keep some VW flava. I think that's the keystone here. Without retaining some of the VW roots you're left with a sort of banal facimily, instead of truly pulling it off. That is what I was hoping to articulate. *whew*

Schtev- Hurrs some choice choices of what I'm gonna call the "mainstream VIP" (what everyone is most familiar with, what's gonna be shoved down peoples throats this year- the new drift) look from this point on that I found quickly... (I SHOULD BE ON EXCEL :BANGHEAD: )

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

(sorry they're all LSs/celsiors- I had that thread handy, also can you tell I like JP a little bit? :P)

PS:
I think of VIP as an extension of Euro. My Jetta has the poke, the strech, the (variable) ride height blah, blah, blah. I've even went so far as to increase my rear camber.

your poke throws it all out the window. they use stretch merely as a vehicle to make the fender sit on the wheel when at full drop/camber, instead of continuing the line of the fender like you do so amazingly.
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p.i.v.

Postby square head » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:48 am

I beleive a big body is required yes. Chunky with four doors = prerequisite.

I love a good discussion. Give me some samples of a compact VIP vehicle. Think of it in this respect... Can you "euroize" a ford mustang or pontiac sunfire? Conflict of interest I think. I think a Crown Vic or a Caddy STS could pull it off. Just trying to spice things up a bit.

I agree with the VIP touch mixed in with traditional VW cues. I like the more subtle wheel fittment where ones lip lines up with the fender rather than poking like mad hell. I love the extended rockers. I love the simple front lip than many of them run. They're still cheating in my book.

One thing that bothers me regardless of styling genre is stance. All but one of your examples above are tucking more in the back than in the front even though their rockers / side skirts are parallel with the ground. I think this is a disease of modern autos. This is something that I struggle with daily.

As much as I'm not a fan of JP, I do love that retarded camber that comes with doube wishbone.
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Postby professor science » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:51 am

Luxurious wrote:Unless the stance is 100% dead on and the proportions are correct

That is the only way it can be done. Without the proper proportions, it looks cartoonish.

Luxurious wrote:Like I feel the best way to use VIP to the advantage of VWs is to use what works and pull it off but keep a VW essence.

But you cannot be VIP while keeping the VW essence. VIP has never been linked to VWs. You can be VIP inspired, like the Kei-cars, but it can't be VIP.

Image
Image

VIP is so inherently Japanese, that without that japanese essence, the car lacks something. To make a VIP VW, it requires a lot of effort, and little touches, and even then it would be considered a luxury-modded VW with some VIP kitch, but it won't be VIP. Pull off some crazy overfenders and air dams and it might be workable, but that's the essence it needs. It is not a $90,000 luxury bomb driven by the yakuza or other high-value elites.

In addition, look at this Civic:
Image
http://vipstylecars.com/forum/index.php?topic=2542.0

EXE-inspiration, but not VIP. It can never be VIP. It looks good, but it's not VIP. The same thing will happen to any VW.
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Postby square head » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:21 pm

If anyone asks I never said the following:
That civic looks good
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Postby professor science » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:07 pm

i won't tell anyone... but it needs to be lower.
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby Maraschino Larry » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:10 pm

well? how'd he do here?

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby Mandeep D » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:52 pm

I'd say that's as about as VIP as VW's get.....

To increase VIPness, maybe smoother styled wheels, and dual tips instead of that extendo-dtm.
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby Dreamstate » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:02 am

err.. the car looks pretty awkward to me. from the side especially.
I'd pass it by at a show.
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby Maraschino Larry » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:07 am

naw that exhaust is straight vip. Though I doubt it works right visually as the mkIV rear is so tall...

I think he should have gone with a smaller diameter wheel, some razor sharp fenders and bagged it. It looks cartoonish and is lacking that stancittude that encapsulates VIP.
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby wide_load » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:22 am

I vote fail-status on the VIP. Lacks the drop/camber that I find gives it that punch and there needs to be more bling-ie chrome.
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby gregosh » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:44 pm

x2 on the fail especially on the exhaust, it looks plain stupid. I don't think the MK4 body style or any other watercooled VW body style can pull it off properly, there's just something about the proportions that is not VIP-ish.
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw scene

Postby professor science » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:06 pm

Mk4 can't do it.

B6 Passat, Mk3 Jetta, and the Phaeton are the only VW that it might be possible in
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw s

Postby Big Dac With Fries » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:44 pm

To me, the thing that strikes that MK4 as un-VIP is the wheelbase.

MK4s have a "short" wheelbase, especially when compared to your stereotypical VIPed cars. They may be the same measured length, but the height of the Mk4 negates the wheelbase length. It's just not "land yacht-y" enough...

I'd love to see a tastefully VIPed (as discussed prior) Audi 5000/100/200. It's just the right amount of chunky car...

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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw s

Postby Maraschino Larry » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:59 am

Hmm... never thought about that.

Speaking of Audi 5000s would you like a near perfect (cosmetically) '84 turbo to make this a reality? If so come drag it away!!!
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Re: Styling Discussion #1: vip and its relation to the vw s

Postby Big Dac With Fries » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:54 pm

Luxurious wrote:Speaking of Audi 5000s would you like a near perfect (cosmetically) '84 turbo to make this a reality? If so come drag it away!!!


Would I? Yes.

Should I? Probably not.

Will I? No.
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